Maintainable

• Noémi Ványi: Only Fix Problems That Are Actually Problems

  Not every messy piece of code needs a refactor. Noémi Ványi, Senior Software Engineer at Xata, joins Robby to discuss how to develop the intuition to know when refactoring is truly necessary and when it’s just unnecessary churn. She shares her approach to balancing pragmatism and maintainability, how product teams and developers can work better together, and why developer autonomy is key to sustainable software.Drawing from her experience working on both open-source and closed-source projects, Noémi reflects on the unique challenges each presents—whether it's dealing with unresponsive GitHub issue reporters, handling unanticipated user behaviors, or navigating large-scale refactors in existing systems. She also shares her philosophy on technical debt: not all of it needs to be paid down, and some of it can actually be strategic.Robby and Noémi also explore the importance of writing meaningful commit messages, the hidden benefits of reviewing open-source pull requests, and why developers should stop waiting for permission to clean up their codebases.Episode Highlights[00:01:00] The characteristics of well-maintained software: modular design, good tests, and observability.[00:02:00] Open source vs. closed source software: Why communication matters more than you think.[00:04:50] Not all technical debt is worth paying down—how to decide when to refactor.[00:06:20] Developing engineering intuition: How experience shapes decision-making.[00:11:08] Lessons from refactoring a log processing system at Elastic.[00:17:09] Strategies for modernizing legacy systems without unnecessary rewrites.[00:19:52] Why maintainability is a business requirement, not an afterthought.[00:24:03] Should developers ask for permission to clean up code or just do it?[00:27:00] The impact of good commit messages and pull request documentation (GitHub PR Templates).[00:30:00] Are issue templates in open source a helpful guardrail or a barrier?[00:32:00] How to gain autonomy as a developer and advocate for technical improvements.[00:39:00] Noémi’s advice: Only fix problems that are actually problems.Resources MentionedNoémi Ványi’s WebsiteNoémi Ványi on GitHubElasticGitHub Pull Request TemplatesGitHubBook RecommendationLost in Thought: The Hidden Pleasures of an Intellectual Life by Zena Hitz🍇Thanks to Our Sponsor!Jelly is the simplest, most affordable way to deal with your “contact@...” emails.Tired of sharing an email login, or CCing colleagues to loop them into conversations? Terrified by the dizzying total cost of big-name “customer support” tools? Jelly is the answer. Whether it's for customer support, community organizing, or even managing band emails, Jelly helps your team share an email inbox and manage your conversations in a simple, elegant way. Use the "I got this” feature to communicate responsibility and private comments for internal discussions. Jelly is perfect for small teams — because it was built by a small team. And Jelly is actually affordable —team-based pricing means everyone can pitch in with your team’s conversations with customers, clients, and beyond.Bonus for Maintainable listeners Get 20% off your first year at letsjelly.com/maintainable. Subscribe to Maintainable on:Apple PodcastsSpotifyOr search "Maintainable" wherever you stream your podcasts.Keep up to date with the Maintainable Podcast by joining the newsletter.

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• Julia López: Code Tells a Story—Even the White Spaces

  How much can legacy code tell us beyond just functionality? Julia López, Senior Software Engineer at Harvest, believes that even small details—such as white spaces, variable names, and formatting choices—can reveal a system’s history.In this episode, Julia and Robby discuss the importance of refactoring and how a strong engineering culture can make or break a team's ability to maintain and improve software over time. Julia shares her experience leading a multi-year overhaul of Harvest’s billing system, balancing stakeholder expectations while ensuring the rewrite delivered real value.They explore how refactoring decisions evolve as teams grow, how to mentor newer developers to feel empowered to make changes, and why Julia doesn’t always trust her own estimations (for good reason). She also opens up about the complexities of transitioning a live billing system while supporting customers, finance teams, and engineering operations—all without disrupting payments.Beyond technical decisions, they also dive into the challenges of communication in remote teams, the value of autonomy in software development, and how teams can make a case for technical debt reduction even when leadership isn’t prioritizing it. If you've ever struggled with refactoring legacy systems or advocating for improvements, this conversation is packed with practical lessons.💡 Key Topics & Timestamps[00:00:22] Meet Julia López – Her background, role at Harvest, and passion for refactoring.[00:00:42] What Makes Software Maintainable? – A test suite you can trust and an engineering culture that values refactoring.[00:06:31] Leading Harvest’s Billing System Overhaul – Why a full rewrite made more sense than incremental improvements.[00:09:54] The Hidden Complexity of Billing Systems – Managing ACH, credit card, and invoice payments.[00:14:05] The Fear Factor in Large-Scale Refactoring – Why organizations hesitate and how to push forward.[00:18:47] Communication Challenges in Remote Teams – Why documentation and transparency matter beyond GitHub.[00:28:30] Finding and Enforcing Engineering Patterns – How teams can encourage consistency in a constantly evolving codebase.[00:35:45] Why Autonomy Matters for Developers – Learning through struggle and when to ask for help.[00:45:25] Advocating for Refactoring When Leadership Says No – Julia's approach: "Ask for forgiveness, not permission—but estimate higher."🔗 Resources MentionedHarvest – Julia's companyRadical Candor by Kim ScottThe Making of a Manager by Julie ZhuoStripe – The payment processor used in Harvest’s billing systemGit Blame – A tool for understanding code history📢 Connect with Julia LópezJulia's WebsiteLinkedInGitHubBlueSky🍇Thanks to Our Sponsor!Jelly is the simplest, most affordable way to deal with your “contact@...” emails.Tired of sharing an email login, or CCing colleagues to loop them into conversations? Terrified by the dizzying total cost of big-name “customer support” tools? Jelly is the answer. Whether it's for customer support, community organizing, or even managing band emails, Jelly helps your team share an email inbox and manage your conversations in a simple, elegant way. Use the "I got this” feature to communicate responsibility, and private comments for internal discussions. Jelly is perfect for small teams — because it was built by a small team. And, Jelly is actually affordable —team-based pricing means everyone can pitch in with your team’s conversations with customers, clients and beyond.Bonus for Maintainable listeners Get 20% off your first year at letsjelly.com/maintainable. Subscribe to Maintainable on:Apple PodcastsSpotifyOr search "Maintainable" wherever you stream your podcasts.Keep up to date with the Maintainable Podcast by joining the newsletter.

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  50:32
• Marty Haught: Rethinking Technical Debt—Is It Really Just Drift?

  Episode OverviewMarty Haught joins Robby to discuss the sustainability of open-source projects, the challenges of maintaining RubyGems, and why the metaphor of technical debt may not fully capture how software ages. Instead, he suggests thinking of it as drift—the natural misalignment of software with its evolving purpose over time.They also dig into security challenges in package management, including how Ruby Central worked with Trail of Bits to audit RubyGems. Marty also shares insights on the EU Cyber Resilience Act and how it might affect open-source maintainers worldwide. Finally, they explore how companies can support open-source sustainability through corporate sponsorships and individual contributions.Topics Discussed[00:01:00] The two pillars of maintainable software: good tests and readability.[00:02:40] From Perl to Ruby: How readability changed Marty's approach to programming.[00:07:20] Is technical debt the right metaphor? Why "drift" might be a better fit.[00:11:00] What does it take to maintain RubyGems? Marty's role at Ruby Central.[00:14:00] Security in package management: How RubyGems handles vulnerabilities.[00:16:40] The role of external audits: Partnering with Trail of Bits for security improvements.[00:20:40] EU Cyber Resilience Act: How new regulations might affect open-source projects.[00:34:00] Funding open source: Why corporate sponsorships are becoming essential.[00:38:20] Processes in distributed teams: Balancing structure with flexibility.[00:44:45] Advocating for technical debt work in teams: How to make a compelling case.Key TakeawaysTechnical debt is often misunderstood. The real issue may not be shortcuts taken in the past, but the way software naturally drifts from its original purpose.Security in package management is a growing concern. Open-source ecosystems like RubyGems require continuous investment to remain secure.Open source needs sustainable funding. Relying on volunteers is not a long-term solution—companies need to contribute via corporate sponsorships.Advocating for code improvements requires strategy. Engineers should frame technical debt discussions around business impact, not just code quality.Resources MentionedMarty Haught on LinkedInMarty Haught on TwitterRuby CentralRubyGemsAuditing the Ruby Ecosystem’s Central Package Repository – Trail of BitsEU Cyber Resilience Act OverviewWhat the EU's New Software Legislation Means for Developers (GitHub Blog)Ruby Central Open Source Program – Get InvolvedCorporate Sponsors ProgramGive and Take by Adam GrantConnect with MartyLinkedInTwitterBlueSkyThanks to Our Sponsor!Jelly is the simplest, most affordable way to deal with your “contact@...” emails.Tired of sharing an email login, or CCing colleagues to loop them into conversations? Terrified by the dizzying total cost of big-name “customer support” tools? Jelly is the answer. Whether it's for customer support, community organizing, or even managing band emails, Jelly helps your team share an email inbox and manage your conversations in a simple, elegant way. Use the "I got this” feature to communicate responsibility, and private comments for internal discussions. Jelly is perfect for small teams — because it was built by a small team. And, Jelly is actually affordable —team-based pricing means everyone can pitch in with your team’s conversations with customers, clients and beyond.Bonus for Maintainable listeners Get 20% off your first year at letsjelly.com/maintainable. Subscribe to Maintainable on:Apple PodcastsSpotifyOr search "Maintainable" wherever you stream your podcasts.Keep up to date with the Maintainable Podcast by joining the newsletter.

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  52:39
• Mike Bowers - From ISAM to JSON—Navigating 40+ Years of Database Evolution

  Mike Bowers, Chief Architect at FairCom, has spent decades navigating the evolution of database technology. In this conversation, he and Robby explore the challenges of maintaining a 40+ year-old codebase, balancing legacy constraints with forward-thinking design, and the realities of technical debt.Mike shares how FairCom transitioned from ISAM-based databases to modern JSON-driven APIs, the trade-offs between strict schemas and flexible document stores, and how software architecture plays a critical role in long-term maintainability. He also explains why human-readable JSON simplifies debugging, how documentation-driven development improves API usability, and why many software teams struggle with refactoring at the right time.Topics covered[00:05:32] The role of software architecture in long-term maintainability[00:10:45] Why FairCom's legacy ISAM technology still matters today[00:14:20] Transitioning to a JSON-based API for modern developers[00:19:40] The challenges of maintaining 40+ years of C code[00:24:10] Technical debt: What it really means and how to manage it[00:28:50] The trade-offs between strict schemas and flexible NoSQL approaches[00:34:00] When to refactor vs. when to start over from scratch[00:38:15] The influence of product management thinking on software architecture[00:42:30] Advice for engineers considering a shift into architecture rolesResources MentionedFairComMike Bowers on LinkedInFairCom on Twitter/XBook Recommendation:The Influential Product Manager by MSc BuceroThanks to Our Sponsor!Need a smoother way to share your team's inbox? Jelly’s got you covered! 🍇✨Jelly is perfect for small teams — because it was built by a small team. If you struggle with keeping your team’s knowledge organized and accessible, check out Jelly, a lightweight knowledge management tool designed to make finding answers easy—without all the clutter of traditional wikis. No more sticky situations or knowledge gaps—Jelly keeps everything smooth, and shareable.Bonus for Maintainable listeners Get 20% off your first year at letsjelly.com/maintainable, Subscribe to Maintainable on:Apple PodcastsSpotifyOr search "Maintainable" wherever you stream your podcasts.Keep up to date with the Maintainable Podcast by joining the newsletter.

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  44:46
• Lorna Mitchell: Writing Documentation Engineers Will Actually Read

  Join Robby as he chats with Lorna Mitchell, open source advocate and technical writer, about the art of creating documentation that doesn’t gather dust. Lorna shares her experiences as a maintainer of the open source project RST2PDF, the value of API governance, and how documentation bridges gaps in developer experience.Highlights:What Makes Software Maintainable: Characteristics like great documentation, automated tests, and onboarding ease.Documentation's Role in Long-Lived Software: Why it’s crucial for internal tools and open source projects alike.Open Source in Practice: Lorna’s journey with RST2PDF and adopting a tech stack she wasn’t initially fluent in.API Governance Simplified: Lorna explains the four levels of API readiness and how teams can work toward more usable APIs.Writing Documentation for Engineers: How style guides can empower contributors without overwhelming them.Using Tools to Improve Documentation: From linters to prose-checking tools like Veil, Lorna discusses practical tips.Key Takeaways:[00:01:00] What makes software well-maintained: documentation, accessibility, and automated tests.[00:03:10] Why documentation isn’t just for new users—Lorna’s experience with revisiting her own open source projects.[00:06:30] Diving into rst2pdf: Challenges in maintaining an abandoned project.[00:13:45] Balancing ownership and transitioning open source projects to new maintainers.[00:15:30] What is OpenAPI, and how does API governance impact usability?[00:26:10] The art of concise yet helpful documentation for different audiences.[00:33:00] Using examples in APIs to enhance clarity and reduce confusion.[00:40:00] Tools for improving writing, from prose linters to markdown syntax checkers.Resources Mentioned:Lorna Mitchell’s Websiterst2pdf ProjectSimon Willison’s Post on One-Person ProjectsHow to Take Smart NotesOpenAPI SpecificationVeil Prose LinterFollow Lorna:GitHubIndieWebThanks to Our Sponsor!Turn hours of debugging into just minutes! AppSignal is a performance monitoring and error-tracking tool designed for Ruby, Elixir, Python, Node.js, Javascript, and other frameworks.It offers six powerful features with one simple interface, providing developers with real-time insights into the performance and health of web applications.Keep your coding cool and error-free, one line at a time! Use the code maintainable to get a 10% discount for your first year. Check them out! Subscribe to Maintainable on:Apple PodcastsSpotifyOr search "Maintainable" wherever you stream your podcasts.Keep up to date with the Maintainable Podcast by joining the newsletter.

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  43:18

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